Tottenham: ‘This is what you get – fire’

The riot came from a community pushed to the edge by the violence of the police, writes Clarence Williams
7 August 2011

'There's no excuse for violence.' It's a familiar refrain. Even people who spend their lives campaigning against injustice are susceptible to blindly repeating it at the first whiff of a riot's rising smoke.

But stop to think for a moment before you condemn what's happened in Tottenham.

Violence, after all, bleeds from every pore of the capitalist state: from dire impoverishment and starvation through to police brutality, all the way up to war. But this kind of violence is routinely excused: it's either necessary to 'keep us safe', or it's just the way things are.

The kind of violence that we're told there's 'no excuse' for - the kind the newspapers focus on so angrily and relentlessly - is usually not even actual violence at all. It's setting a police car on fire - or, for that matter, smashing the windows of the Millbank Tower.

Property damage is not violence - it doesn't physically hurt anybody. And it doesn't come out of nowhere: time after time, it is a desperate response to the violence of the police.

Student Kit Withnail wrote about Millbank in Red Pepper: 'I had my head bashed in that day by police who charged us when I had my back to them. I spent the evening in hospital, bleeding from the head and vomiting.' And that was just one of hundreds of terrible stories.

Occasionally a cop grazes their knee or similar at a protest, and it's reported with the utmost seriousness as an 'officer injured'. But it's hardly a fair fight.

In Tottenham, as the media makes 'scenes of looting' its focus, the original act of horrific violence that this is all really about starts to get lost.

This is about a community enraged by the police killing a man named Mark Duggan. The media have been quick to call the 29-year-old a 'gangster', despite the utter lack of evidence for that assertion.

The known facts are that the father-of-four was shot twice in the face on Thursday by a police officer wielding a Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun. (Few have rushed to condemn that violence.)

Semone Wilson, Mark's girlfriend, said: 'I spoke to him at about 5pm and he asked me if I'd cook dinner. He said he spotted a police car following him.

'By 6.15 he had been gunned down. I kept phoning and phoning to find out where he was. He wasn't answering.

'I rushed down to where it happened. They let me through the police lines but they wouldn't let me see his body.'

Some witnesses report that Duggan was lying on the ground when he was shot.

An eyewitness told the Evening Standard: 'About three or four police officers had both men pinned on the ground at gunpoint. They were really big guns and then I heard four loud shots. The police shot him on the floor.'

Yesterday (Saturday), hundreds gathered to demand justice for Duggan, marching from the Broadwater Farm estate where he lived to Tottenham police station.

They asked for someone to come out and speak to them. A resident told the BBC that a 16-year-old girl approached police to ask questions - and they 'set upon her with batons'.

Then people got really angry. As the fires started, they were chanting a simple demand: 'We want answers'.

They deserve those answers. And those who tell them to be calm and wait for the IPCC inquiry might reflect on the record of that useless organisation.

Because this is not just about Mark Duggan. This is about Smiley Culture. This is about Ian Tomlinson, Jean Charles de Menezes, Harry Stanley and so many hundreds more...

Martin Luther King said 'a riot is the language of the unheard'. The people on the streets of Tottenham are not 'violent' criminals with some burning hatred of Aldi. They are part of a community that has been pushed to the edge by the very real violence of the police.

As one rioter, Jamal, told Channel 4 News: 'We're here to tell the police they can't abuse us, harass us. We won't put up with it. This is just the beginning, this is war, and this is what you get - fire.'


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Wills 7 August 2011, 04.06

“Property damage is not violence – it doesn’t physically hurt anybody.”

What a crock of shit. This is no victimless crime. Small local businesses have been destroyed, livelihoods and jobs trashed, private homes broken into and families displaced by reckless fire-raising. You should be ashamed of yourself. This is not an uprising of socialist anger but a carnival of consumerism. Go on to Twitter, search for Wood Green or Tottenham Hale and see the greedy wasters rubbing their hands at free stuff while the police are otherwise engaged.

Those of us who live in this community are shamed by these violent, stupid, greedy people.

gemma 7 August 2011, 04.13

So a man gets shot by police and a 16 year old girl beaten, and what does Wills get upset about? A few people nicking from PC World. Get your priorities straight.

Rob 7 August 2011, 04.13

Livelihoods and jobs trashed – why should I care about their jobs and livelihoods?

I’m perfectly happy and fine in my job, my livelihood is not destroyed. What benefit is it to me to want this disorder stopped?

None. Zero. There is no chance of it happening where I am, even if it did I would have insurance because I’m not an idiot. Now actually I enjoy the thought of people engaging in disorder, so that is a benefit to my ‘sick twisted’ mind. I should be caring more about my bottlecap collection I’m sure.

Joe 7 August 2011, 04.42

What a terrible article.

Sam Sam 7 August 2011, 07.19

Tottenham locals have the right to make their voices heard however not in violence, damage or looting because the resources required to fix things up takes more money away from their community when they need it most to spend on other things such as education and looking after the elderly. I am not happy about the situation of Mark Duggan however will leave it to the authorities to investigate rather then go set something on fire.

Pete 7 August 2011, 07.31

The man who was shot shot at the police.

This article makes it sound like he was some random innocent nice guy, but he had a gun!

Tom 7 August 2011, 07.39

Violence is not the way, but then the police and the IPCC cannot be trusted either.
You talk and talk and talk, but when you get no answers, or worse, violence from those that are supposedly there to keep the peace, things will boil over.
People condemning the violence may not have experienced violence from the police.

Helen 7 August 2011, 07.54

‘Red Pepper is a magazine of political rebellion and dissent’ -ahhh, so we can expect your reporting to be entirely impartial then?!?

For the record setting fire to things and throwing bricks/fire missiles at people is generally construed as ‘violence’. I feel sorry for those poor people who’ve had their businesses and community destroyed by this. Also, I have not once read that Duggan was referred to as a ‘gangster’. I have however read numerous reports that he was armed and fired at police. I’d recommend getting some sense of perspective.

Taley 7 August 2011, 07.58

What most of you dont understand is the police lie. He did not have a gun!!.

Paul 7 August 2011, 07.58

And every time that a community of young people get together to voice their feelings there will be violence. Because in the 21st century, in civilised Britain, there is a way of doing it without causing damage, or inflicting violence.
Black and white together last night used the single, peaceful protest to unleash a night of terror in Tottenham.
And in the end, who suffers.
The people of Tottenham. Roads closed, services damaged, shops destroyed, homes ruined. I hope the young hooded gang culture seen on TV laughing, gesturing and behaving like tribal prehistoric neanderthals feel proud and strong and happy when they see their families struggling to rebuild Tottenham. They can stand there, with those people, tired, hungry and homeless, look them in the eye and say , “Yeah man, I did that for ya. Good innit.” ANIMALS. And you defend them?

Hannah 7 August 2011, 08.00

Excellent impartial reporting here…ahem. Note the lack of reporting that Duggan was himself armed and fired at the police officers first as we indeed know to be true. The worst piece of journalism I have ever come across.

Paul 7 August 2011, 08.02

Tell me Gemma, how does ‘nicking from PC World’ critique the violence of the police towards the citizenry it is supposed to protect? Protest is one thing, looting and burning shops is another.

Nick 7 August 2011, 08.14

Brilliant article. Not sure why the liberal intelligentsia feel that the dispossessed care about their vision of a ‘good’
way of changing things. Many people in this country are on the receiving end of a full attack from the state. Get off your lap tops and see what it’s like. Or get out of the way if you can’t lend a hand.

Eddie 7 August 2011, 08.28

@ Hannah, could you please provide a link to back up you claim that duggan was himself armed and fired at police first. As far as I’m aware the police have not made statements confirming this.

mac 7 August 2011, 08.31

Your a fucking idiot. So is this article

mac 7 August 2011, 08.31

Your a fucking idiot.

B 7 August 2011, 08.36

You forgot to mention the part where Mark Duggan shot and tried to kill a police officer. But I suppose that doesn’t matter when you’re trying to villify the police for doing their job. Don’t go claiming to write an article on the ‘facts’ of a story when you’re not even bothering to include them all.

B 7 August 2011, 08.41

Also, whilst looting may not be violence against another person’s body: throwing bottles, bricks and petrol bombs is. As is punching and kicking innocent bystanders and reporters who were doing their job. I’m sure the eight who have been hospitalised would say they’ve had violent attacks against them.

Paul 7 August 2011, 08.48

Eddie, do you think that the police fired at each other or that the man fired a shot at police after he was killed.
Man with gun shoots police officer, police officers shoot man with gun.
NOT man without gun gets shot and police then shoot each other to frame him.. doh.
It is a sick world we live in, don’t make it any sicker.

Pete 7 August 2011, 08.50


No, we don’t know who fired first, but he had a gun and did shoot! If I was an armed police officer and someone pointed a gun at me I think I would try to shoot him BEFORE he shot me, wouldn’t you?

Dan Murphy 7 August 2011, 08.50

There’s an argument that justice has already been done to a man who was carrying a gun and shot at a police officer.

It’s also difficult to look at footage of people with their faces covered with scarves or hoods repeatedly kicking at shop windows in a frenzy and not think it is violent.

How can what started off as a ‘community campaign’ for justice, turn in to people burning and vandalising that same community?

There are echoes here of the student protests a little while back, with a legitmate protest being hijacked by people with nothing on their mind other than smashing up a few shops, burning police cars and stealing themselves a new computer or two.

Emily 7 August 2011, 08.51

This article is utter trash. I didn’t realise it was acceptable to burn down and rob peoples livelihoods. What is this going to achieve? That England is full of hooligans. This is why the rest of the world is laughing at us

Becs 7 August 2011, 08.51

This article is terrible. Shame on you, shame on you

Paul 7 August 2011, 08.59

This new gangster culture, urban guerrillas, youths with nothing better to do than aggravate and agress,is becoming tiresome.
When they are caught, convicted and sentenced, they get community service, laughable, or prison in a 5 star environment with criminal training.
Better to send them to Africa, to help with mine clearing in villages hit by REAL violence. They would come back changed individuals.
Or put them in eastern prisons. Thugs don’t deserve the states funds being spent looking after them.

ZootCadillac 7 August 2011, 09.00

What an incredibly naive view of things. And typical of the outlook of the anarchist student brigade who think they can change the world but as soon as they get a mortgage and children look back wondering what they were thinking. ( and they all do, even myself ).
This is a community in uproar over the shooting of a man who was shot in the street. he was being followed by police because they had information that Duggan was going to execute a man in retribution for the killing of his friend. he was carrying a firearm. he phoned his girlfriend and said ‘The feds are following me’ – odd language for a law abiding citizen no? later when approached he ( Duggan) shot a police officer who was saved by his radio which caught the bullet. At that point the man, described as ‘down since his friend was stabbed in April’ was taken down by police.
So now we have some facts you neglected to mention, what right do the people of Tottenham have to create violence and perform thievery on the streets? this is not the act of a repressed community lashing back at the police. this is the act of a small criminal fraternity stirring up trouble because they are angry and the mindless sheep of youth joining in because let’s face it, that’s what they do until they grow up.

This was an orchestrated act to mask looting in an electronics rich area of commerce.

Duggan was an armed man who police believed was out to shoot another man in an act of retribution. A fact that might be validated by him shooting a policeman when cornered.

let’s have the full story eh?

Paul 7 August 2011, 09.01

I notice the author of the article is remaining anonymous……

journalistic hoody.


Paul 7 August 2011, 09.03

Clarence Williams, sorry, it should be noted.

Should we come round your place and raise it to the ground in protest of your article..

Kayleigh 7 August 2011, 09.06

You state your claims like they are fact yet you can’t get the details right yourself. In fact, you’re omitting details to further your point. Mark Duggan was a father of 4 children, who shot at police. The only reason why the policeman got away uninjured is because the bullet hit his radio.

Where exactly is the evidence that this 16 year old girl was victim to an provoked attack from the police? I suspect there’s hardly any, but it’s enough for you to try and take the moral high ground. Utter rubbish. Go back to school and learn how to write a proper unbiased article. Or get a job at The Sun.

Emma 7 August 2011, 09.32

As ever red pepper offer a refreshingly different view. Some will agree, some most certainly won’t (from reading comments so far)! Valuable food for thought!

appalled 7 August 2011, 09.37

I am completely appalled by reading this article.

The comparison between Charles de Menzies and Mark Duggan is completely inappropriate and frankly, offensive! Clarles de Menzies was an innocent man on the tube whereas Mark Duggan carried a gun and shot at the police!

Even with this startling difference between the two men, you did not see riots and looting from the Brazilian community in memory of Mr De Menzies. The looting and riots of last night are INEXCUSABLE, SHAMEFUL, CRIMINAL and I hope the police find the thugs responsible.

Shame that all they will get is a slap on the wrist.

Mr Bungle 7 August 2011, 09.43

Way to go, Paul. Deride the author for being anonymous in one breath, then when you realise you’re wrong and manage to locate the name above the article, issue threats. Hurrah for free speech, eh?

Mr Bungle 7 August 2011, 09.46

@Appalled – did you believe that Menezes was innocent in the days after he was shot, or did you believe the police and media line?

What happened in Tottenham last night was completely unjustified, but if I as a white, middle class male have completely lost faith in the Met and anything they say, then I suspect that there are many more feeling even more strongly.

Aran 7 August 2011, 09.47

Violence against the system of violence is not wrong as by definition it is defensive. As an analogy if a bloke punches your mother in the face, you are not doing wrong by stopping him with any degree of forced needed. There is often excuse for violence and it is effective that is why the elites use it so much.

Also I am not to interested in the morality of the specifics, perfection is unrealistic – the main thing is anger and a willingness to fight back. I would rather have 1000 imperfect rioters on my side when the shit hits the fan than 100,000 passive supporters calling for an ‘IPCC investigation’ or writing to their MP as my blood stained body lay on the floor.

Phil 7 August 2011, 09.51

Is Clarence Williams retarded?
I have never read such a heap of twisted garbage as he pukes up in this pile of crap.

Matt 7 August 2011, 09.54

People fighting back is always a good thing. I don’t know what shops were looted but if they were multinationals, I am all for it.

Phil 7 August 2011, 09.57

You are about 12 years old Matt?

Johnny 7 August 2011, 10.02

Total bullshit. Disgraceful article. So the author won’t believe the police or the eye-witnesses who saw Duggan shoot first, but will believe “a resident” who told the story of the 16 year old girl.

Disgusting reporting, the author really should be ashamed, as should all those who have got this article trending on Twitter.

Sally 7 August 2011, 10.04

The State uses violence all the time against the poor, fighting back in the face of this violence is not only understandable it is a dam good thing. Peaceful protests, writing to MPs and chanting for peace don’t work alone – we saw that with the Iraq war – millions march and war is declared. With the poll tax thousands rioted and the whole thing is called off! Shame on those that object to violence and allow the oppression to continue.

Clare 7 August 2011, 10.06

If police had him on the floor, he’d have been face down, how did they then manage to shoot him in the face twice?

Jen 7 August 2011, 10.11

Are you a middle class, pacifist (except when its the states violence), more use to asking the police the time than being beaten by them, ignorant, never gone with out a meal and had to shoplift to feed your family, wanker Phil?

Phil 7 August 2011, 10.14

sally….you strike me as a wannabe rioter who is too frightened to act. Why do you believe destroying peoples homes and livelihoods as a justifiable act?
Would you gladly see your home burnt to the ground?

Mark 7 August 2011, 10.18

Aran: What if after stopping the bloke punching your mum, you then go on a rampage, punching a load of people who had nothing to do with it?

What if the “1000 imperfect rioters on my side when the shit hits the fan” smash up your car, your business, or your place of work?

I agree that vandalism isn’t violence, and that sometimes vandalism is the only way people can vent their anger. Though my support quickly drops when innocents are targeted, people who are also part of that community, people who may also have shared that anger, and agreed with whatever point they were trying to make.

I’m also wary of trying to link last night’s events with political points – when shops are being looted, are they really doing it to make a political protest?

Phil 7 August 2011, 10.20

Oh jen….you poor pathetic little girl. You need to travel a bit and see what oppression is like. Sad little fucks like you who think you have it bad need to actually go outside.

Caradon 7 August 2011, 10.21

Owning or carrying a gun is no justification for being shot at by the police, brandishing the gun in a threatening manner is. I don’t care if the person is reaching for something, officers – if they aren’t firing at you – FUCK OFF.

You have protective gear and you have the upper hand – you have power in numbers and a network of communication on your side. Your job is to place yourself in harms way – so stop using your fucking guns first.

The riots are what is needed in many places where police corruption runs so thick, we can not expect or respect the decisions of internal policies regarding such events. When police become that bad, they must be removed and replaced with another entity.

There is no reason that “police” be the only law enforcement. Other entities should be out there as well, More importantly – all should be accountable, arguably more so than citizens.

All police and other entities should be recording themselves and the environment at all times, when not filming, their jurisdiction is null and void Their word- useless. This ensures corruption is reduced, ensures police are accountable and less violent.

This article is damn good, and we need to rise up against our police when they behave in corrupt manners. Whenever they kill an innocent or attack a child for asking questions – if they aren’t put on unpaid leave we should flood the streets.

At absolutely no point should we destroy public property in riots, If you must be violent in riots, then grab a police officer and strip them of their protective gear and toss them out of the crowd.

Thats the WORST action that should occur in a riot. The absolute worst. – Disarm the police.

Aran 7 August 2011, 10.28

Mark, if I was rich enough to own a car (I am not) and it was distroyed in an act of anger needed to stop the State/Police then I’d be OK with it – Insurance company would payout in any case. Same with most other damage. Kicking passer-bys I agree not good.

Jen 7 August 2011, 10.33

Phil, so I’ll take that as a yes then. Travel, what with, buttons?

Adam 7 August 2011, 10.34

This article highlights your level of stupidity…fucking idiot. Those rioting are scumbags and deserve a good kicking

Phil 7 August 2011, 10.37

So Jen….you believe destroying peoples homes is a justifiable act? How does it help to feed your family? Your problem is envy. I want to see your home burnt down and see you lose everything. No doubt you will be happy to see that happen as it is just a protest.

Adam 7 August 2011, 10.39

…better yet, they want to fight so bad and look tough (behind their hoodies mind) send them to afganistan amd bring back the soldiers actually fighting for good…again, you are a knob

gemma 7 August 2011, 10.40

The fact is – if you’re black and have contact with the police, you too often end up dead.

Meanwhile if you’re Rupert Murdoch and have contact with the police, they do nothing about your crimes – but they do take some brown envelopes to remember you by…

Neil 7 August 2011, 10.41

What the hell?! This article is written by the kind of moron we could do without in this society

Jen 7 August 2011, 10.44

No I don’t support attacks on personal property. Nor do I tar all the rioters with the same brush.

Dave 7 August 2011, 10.48

To the author of this article: can I have your home address please? I feel I need to vent anger at what you have written, and I know you’ll be ok with me destroying your property and putting you in fear for yours and your families safety. Because it’s not violence, right? The insurance company can rebuild your home, restore your business, and remove the fear, anxiety and distress of such ‘non-violence’. Right?

gemma 7 August 2011, 10.53

So let’s get this straight, Dave, how your moral worldview maps out:

– Burning down Aldi and Carpetright = a terrible crime
– Issuing threats to burn down people’s homes = perfectly fine, as long as it’s you doing it

Phil 7 August 2011, 10.54

Jen….finally some sort of progress. So what part of the riot are you in agreement with?

david 7 August 2011, 10.55

Gemma – your comment about Dave. He was being ironic, yeah?

Jon B 7 August 2011, 10.58

The likelihood is that many small businesses in this area will not be insured due to the high cost of insurance. It is also likley that many insurers will refuse to pay out on damage caused by rioting. So many innocent people affected by some thugs using an ill informed protest against the death of a gun toting ganster who had shot at the police to go on a looting spree.

Tony 7 August 2011, 10.59

Clarence I’m fully in favour of police brutality if it is meted out to fucking imbecilities like you. If they off you then the collective IQ of the nation has just leapt several points.

Claire 7 August 2011, 11.04

He was a gang member with a gun end off. You live that way so you know the risks. he shot the police and the police fired back, gun crime goes on everyday in tottenham, this has kicked off coz police was involved. You can’t let gangs run around with guns!

HC 7 August 2011, 11.05

A think MLK Jr would not agree with kids setting fire to LOCAL homes , and queueing to loot a trainer store .. this wasn’t an outpouring of rage , but rather an opportunistic chance to put one over on the system.

The Police shooting does need to be investigated, and properly independently

The consequence of last night is that more decent people will move out of the area , resulting in the problems we face here getting worse

Craig 7 August 2011, 11.06

If he was armed and brandished the weapon at the police then you can be assured he will be shot. If he was unarmed and shot then I can understand the family being aggreaved. The family was staging a peacefull protest in order to gain the facts as to why the police shot him. Why the police did not engage with the family earlier is beyond me. That peacefull protest was hijacked and turned into the farce that was last nights violence. Innocent familys lost everything !!! some have been left with nothing but the clothes or nightwear that they were stood in !!! (should there familys now stage a riot in protest). There is a means and a way to protest !!! last night is not one of them!…

Claire 7 August 2011, 11.06

There was no need to attack the BBC news reporters and camera man last night WTF?? Idiots. They had to cut coverage..

gemma 7 August 2011, 11.06

All this concern for small businesses from the right wing on here… yet none for the so many victims of the police.

Tony 7 August 2011, 11.10

Claire, to them there was a need to attack camera men. They weren’t protesting the killing, they were out for a bit of mayhem and a chance to get some nice consumer goods, and didn’t want footage taken that may be used to convict them

Phil 7 August 2011, 11.11

So gemma….you are fully in favour of destroying people’s homes and livelihoods? Please explain why.

Gilbz 7 August 2011, 11.14

big deal scum got shot, if i had it my way i would’ve took the tanks in last night and shot the rest of the scummers, NOW THAT’S OPPRESSIVE!!!

wayne 7 August 2011, 11.15

Is this article actually supposed to hold any weight?…

There is no proof Mr Duggan was a “gangster” you are correct there,So he was just your average joe public carrying and discharging a loaded firearm in a public place then?

…and no mention of the officer that was shot, or indeed his family and children, but Mr Duggan was a “father of 5”.

One presumes he was just travelling home from a hard day at work then to support his family when polcie accosted him for no good reason, and he had no choice but to use deadly force on them in order that they not prevent him from supoporting his brood…ignorant and moronic.

Mr Duggan had a gun, he shot at polcie and they fired back, he is not the innocent party in this because he happened to sire some children, I don’t know any “family men” that require or feel the need to carry a gun on their person, or come to think of it have access to one…becaaue that’s against the law right? so he was a criminal,yes? But the community want justice for him?

There is no

Tony 7 August 2011, 11.15

Gemma, is it not possible to be concerned for people who have had lives destroyed on both sides? I want the police held accountable for their victims as much as I want the cock suckers who have destroyed peoples livelihoods caught.

If you are only able to see one side of this then you are a fool.

The Truth 7 August 2011, 11.19

Sad thing is when I was 19 I would probably have believed some of the nonsense on this website (and article). Thankfully I grew up. We should now be using the full force of technology. There is LOADS of looting footage. All of that should be online so the pubic can name the perpetrators – who should then face the due process of law. And anyone in this country who doesnt like our liberal democracy should F**k off now to Syria or somewhere like that where they like the mob and rule of mindless thugs. Hell – I will even buy you an air ticket …

Caradon 7 August 2011, 11.20

There was no proof he discharged his handgun, There was no proof it was even being brandished, but the police used a fully automatic and shot him in the face.

Gracie 7 August 2011, 11.22

This is not something to commend which is what i’m getting from this article. Yes demonstrationg is the peacful way of going about trying to get your message across but fire? looting? destroying buisinesses, shops that probably most of those who destroyed them used!
The fires and looting only did one thing, it turned the attention away from the true nature of the demonstration, NO ONE is going to remember why people were out there trying to find justice for the 29 year old man that was killed but instead all people will remember are the violent mobs of people who’s aim it was to destroy Tottenham.
I am deeply upset. As of now it looks entirely unrecognisable. Tottenham wasn’t the best place in the world to live, but it was still nice, i went about my day to day business without being troubled, it was just a normal area really and now?

Young people – mainly yong guys have given themselves a perfect excuse for being targeted by police. I do feel sympathy to those who get questioned on regular basis for no absolute reason but it seems those people who condem the police have simpley given the police a better excuse to single them out.

All this violence and building destroying hasn’t solved anything. Yes there was some media coverage but come Wednesday he media would have forgotten.
I’m just honestly still shocked that it went that far. They didn’t think about how it would affect other business or PEOPLE in general. – They have nothing to do with the police!!

Where are you going to shop now?!!!!??!

I will not defend anyone who was part of the violent riots that took place during the early hours of the morning. Tell me this WHAT HAVE YOU ACHIEVED?? except shaming Tottenham’s name.

Ron Graves 7 August 2011, 11.22

The violence is, to a degree, understandable, but from Toxteth onwards (I lived and worked in Liverpool, and the riots should have surprised nobody – they’d been coming for quite a while), these events only ever seem to have one result,turning inward and destroying their own communities, burning businesses and homes without as thought for the consequences – the mob is a mindless organism.

Gemma – burning homes and businesses doesn’t solve problems, it creates them. A depressed area is now even more depressed. I find it worrying that you appear not to grasp that. It’s not exactly complicated.

Caradon 7 August 2011, 11.27

If this rioting was justified in any way, it would have focused on police stations and municipal buildings ONLY.

Looting and burning is horse shit and the people involved need to stop being so destructive. It needs to work back down to a demonstration, not a riot.

If police get violent, spray THEM with ghost pepper extract. If they lob gas and smoke, throw them back.

Push the POLICE back

Kate 7 August 2011, 11.27

Ron – how about this:

Weyman Bennett: “You can tell the poverty people are living in by what they’re looting. I saw people running off with big packs of toilet roll and disposable nappies.”

And there’s this quote from an eyewitness: “When I saw Jewish people out tonight too I was happy. I thought, ‘It’s not just us’. They gave bread out to us. It isn’t just kids out tonight. It’s everyone.”

Both from

Tony 7 August 2011, 11.28

I think Ron Graves hits the nail on the head. Looting of a business may seem insignificant to some, but what happens when other companies think that the risk isn’t worth the gain and do not invest in an area? Or insurance costs rise so much that smaller businesses cannot remain? A depressed area becomes more depressed.

Suzie 7 August 2011, 11.30

Funny how some people who cheer on the movements for democracy and justice in the Middle East are so quick to write the rioters off as criminals and thugs. You realise that’s exactly what Mubarak and Gaddafi said about rioters in Egypt and Libya, right?

Tony 7 August 2011, 11.31

Kate, to me that says all the good stuff was gone. What happens when the shop selling big packs of toilet rolls and disposable nappies pulls the shutters down and they stay down?

Rico 7 August 2011, 11.31

Mark Duggan “Starish Mark” was a member a the Star Gang, part of Tottenham Mandem, a well known gang from Broadwater farm. Hence Mark’s description as an “elder” on the farm, despite being in his 20s.
I feel sorry for his family espeically his children as they have lost their dad. It was Mark’s choice to carry a gun though, and Marks choice to fire it at an officer. What do you think the Police shoud do when fired at? Run away and leave an armed man on the loose? Burning down peoples homes (people live in the flats above the shops) isnt going to bring Mark back.
It just turns the neighbourhood into a ghetto.
Ironically, Trident the Met team who tried to arrest Mark are working to arrest the murderer of his cousin, stabbed to death last March. The Police will continue to investigate this stabbing and other crimes and try and protect the very people who were throwing bricks at them last night. It’s cool to hate the police, until its you who needs to call 999

gemma 7 August 2011, 11.35

I’m not saying burning shops is the answer to all their problems. I’m saying that it’s nothing compared to the police shooting someone. Yet which one leads the news?

Right now I’m listening to the BBC talking about petrol bombs and ‘violence’, with next to nothing about the original shooting of Mark Duggan. But there’s still more about it now than there was at the time it actually happened, which was a small mention on the local news.

Property damage is the biggest story. Police killings – and there are dozens every year – are barely considered a story at all. Doesn’t that strike you as skewed?

I’m saying that when people get angry, they lash out. And a bit of damage to property is a small price to pay for the police’s killing of Mark Duggan.

Kate 7 August 2011, 11.39

Rico –

You say he was a gang member. You have no evidence for that apart from what’s been in the tabloids, no doubt sourced from the boys in blue. (As we’ve discovered over the last few weeks, they’re good pals with certain media companies.)

You say he shot at the police. Not even the police are saying that. There’s simply no evidence for it, again just tabloid tittle tattle.

The widely circulated story is that a bullet got lodged in a police radio. Now that’s either a small miracle for the officer involved, or the sort of thing you easily could set up after the fact… put radio on ground, fire. Take your pick.

Martin Pilkington 7 August 2011, 11.50

There is a lot of jumping to assumptions here, and a lot of idiocy as well.

First off, the facts we know about the shooting. Mark Duggan was 29 and his cousin had recently been knifed to death. He was in a minicab and was to be arrested by police due to allegations that he was about to kill someone in retribution. As he was suspected to have a gun armed police were involved. The armed police fired at least 2 shots killing Mark Duggan. A non-police issue handgun was found. A police radio had a bullet lodged in it.

We cannot yet say who fired first. Of course the assumption is that the police were fired upon before firing, but we’ll have to wait for the full facts before we can be certain.

With regards to the police having body armour, have you ever seen the armour provided to armed police? It doesn’t protect them from everything. In fact if it did it would be issued to soldiers and we’d never see another death. It also doesn’t protect any unprotected officers in the area, nor any members of the public, including the driver of the minicab.

And on the subject of the protests. If you’re supporting the rioters you’re effectively supporting cowards and thugs. Violence is never the answer, as violence merely destroys any validity your argument had. Violence harms people, and rioting often harms innocent people.

The bus company who has to replace their bus and the driver who had to deal with his bus being attacked while still in it. The shop owners who have lost stock and had their businesses damaged due to looting. The businesses who have seen their buildings burnt down, and the people living in the area who had to put up with the fear of the whole event and who will ultimately have to pay for the clean up. And finally the fire brigade and the ambulance service, who had to put their lives at risk tackling these, while rioters were hurling objects at them. These are all victims.

Good change never comes from violence. Violence almost always leads to crack downs and tightening of laws. Violence is what leads to police states being viable and justifiable. Peaceful protest is the tool of people who actually want to see things get better. The police and politicians are there to serve the community, so actually go and have a dialogue with them. If people have issues with the police then go and get together and arrange to meet with them and talk. And if that gets you nowhere do the same with your politician. And if that doesn’t work start spreading the word. It is how almost every major change for the good in society has happened, and it’s easier than ever to get a message out there. The only time violence has ever worked is as an absolute last resort, usually against crazed dictators, and we’re nowhere near that yet.

Some people may deride those who “write to their MP”, but the fact is we’re trying to change things for the better. To the person who said they “would rather have 1000 imperfect rioters on my side when the shit hits the fan than 100,000 passive supporters calling for an ‘IPCC investigation’ or writing to their MP as my blood stained body lay on the floor”, I’d personally much rather have the 100,000 decent people who abhor violence and want to improve things, than the 1000 cowardly thugs intent on harming others.

There are many genuine grievances with the police and how they operate, but at the same time there are many cases of people screaming about how we’re living in a police state because they were pulled over for doing 60 in a 30 zone. We should work to fix the former via means that don’t exacerbate the problem. As for the latter, well there will always be those who are a few cards short of a deck.

Eddie 7 August 2011, 12.16

Mark duggan fired the first shot: unconfirmed

The bullet lodged in the police radio was from mark duggans gun: unconfirmed

The firearm recovered from the scene belonged to mark duggan: unconfirmed

Mark duggan was a “gangster”: the word gangster is normally used by White middle class citizens to describe young black males. Easily replaceable with the word n*gger.

Mark duggan shot at police: unconfirmed

Mark duggan was brandishing a weapon: unconfirmed

Sara 7 August 2011, 12.26

“They are part of a community that has been pushed to the edge by the very real violence of the police.”


They are now part of a local community who have now been made destitute by the actions of the foolhardy VIOLENCE of a few individual desiring nothing more than to see vengance for their frustration.
They could not care less about the guy who got killed or the people affected. If they were, they would be there in consolidation with the victims of this alledged crime, to support them no matter what the outcome of the investigation.

What they did was ruin the community’s ability to earn a living from local business, risk the lives of these people and steal from their own community.

“Property damage is not violence”. I think you’ll find according to most dictionaries on the planet (do they lie too?!) that “violence is physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing”.

Besides, how would you feel if someone attacked your or a loved one’s business or house?

Susan 7 August 2011, 12.26

I absolutely agree with you, Willis. Those business owners and fellow citizens who may very well lose their jobs now that they have no car did nothing to deserve that. Don’t act like these people are righteous. They should get answers, sure, but they know damn well that setting things on fire and looting doesn’t punish the people responsible. They just like the excuse.

Symon 7 August 2011, 12.34

Police claim that Demetre Fraser committed suicide by jumping from the 11th storey of a apartment block whilst in police custody.

Neighbours howver, report that a violent struggle occurred.

So much for police and their facts.

Even after the Murdoch debacle and the convenient and timely death of News of the World reporter and whistle blower, Sean Hoare, some people refuse to see the force for what it is.

If you believe that you are protected because of race or class then simply have not been paying attention.

Marie 7 August 2011, 12.37

No, this article makes a very good point.

With a corrupt, dishonest, incompetent and unaccountable police force, which abuses and even kills with impunity, and an IPCC and government which appears to condone the state of affairs, the events in Tottenahm are entirely unsurprising.

It is a very sad reflection on both the police and the government. Does anyone really suppose that we would have had rioting last night if it weren’t for the most appalling police brutality going on unchecked for years? Add up every family who’s lost someone by police action and casually been denied justice, add up every person who’s been harrassed or assaulted or fitted up by police over the years, with no hope of justice, and what do you get?

Anyone who thinks the police are the good guys in all this is hopelessly naiive and living in cloud cuckoo land, frankly. Something has to be done to improve policing and stop the injustice, and thereby stop the violence. It’s not rocket science.

ally 7 August 2011, 12.39

Mark Pilkington above has verbalised all that is sane and represents the vast majority of what I have read over last 12 hours or so on twitter.
I’ve read about people living over shops that were set alight, local businesses no longer there, livelihoods lost. What started off as bravado- go get the banks- turned into my god my aunty has lost her flat.
A f**k the police, to where are they?
Yeah a fire, to where are the fire engines- to they turning back because too dangerous for them to do their job because of violent thugs.

And losing your job, your home, your favourite shops- expect the girls caught looting H&M will be excellent role models and citizens of this country.Not the mother I would ever want.

Shame on you all!

My heart goes out to the real and nice people, not the jump on some spiralling downward bandwagon of a few intent on hating their lives, but not willing to make positive difference, and want others to feel their pain.

Interesting photo of Mark Duggan here

Guess pictures don’t lie.

Rico 7 August 2011, 12.41

you are absolutely right.
I have made assumptions about the shooting,
The pistol could have been planted and the radio shot
afterwoods by putting it on the ground. However it was very busy at the time of the shooting, so if it was a set up lots of people would have witnessed it. Theres no single report mentioning anything along these lines. The Minicab driver for one will know the truth. Whatever the circumstances its a shame for his family especially his kids. It’s also very sad that peoples homes have been burned down and livelihoods destroyed, given they had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Regarding whether Mark was a gang member or not
I didnt get that from the media. But ask yourself this. If Mark wasnt why was he targeted by a Trident operation

Nick 7 August 2011, 12.43

Peacefull protest works of you actually care, I guess no one here has heard of MLK or Ghandi, two of the most celebrated and important men of the twentieth century.

Marie 7 August 2011, 12.45

Yes, Symon, you’re right. I thought I was protected because I am white, female and middle class. I was complacent, and I was proved horrifically wrong. Anyone who hasn’t experienced police abuse can’t really realise how traumatic and damaging it is, and even more so, the cynical coverups that go with it and the utter disempowerment and routine denial of justice.

I hope and pray that these shocking events will help to wake people up to what the police are really like, and just maybe something can change. Personally, I feel like setting up a peaceful organisation where *everyone* who’s been abused by police can band together for support, and to call for justice. At the moment, there’s nowhere effective for people to turn to. I reckon it’d have an awful lot of members.

Alan 7 August 2011, 12.48

You’re a fucking idiot !

ally 7 August 2011, 12.48

Rico, missed your comments. Glad to read them now

InjusticeUK 7 August 2011, 12.50

FANTASTIC article – we have seen this all before. A peaceful protest with both black and white within the community demanding answers from the police only to be ignored. As a white male living in London I can say the police still fail miserably when it comes to pure simple RACISM.

“Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.” – Federick Douglas

Djmc 7 August 2011, 12.51

Ignorant, and pitiful article, speaking only to justify thuggery, this does not speak for any of us. You are one and the same as the thieving scum and trash we are surrounded by. We work on a daily basis against these scum bags to maintain a community against these muggers, violent gangs, abusive toe rags!

Marie 7 August 2011, 12.55

Is Djmc by any chance a member of Her Majesty’s Constabulary? See, this is just the type of attitude that *causes* violence – calling people scum and trash and treating them accordingly – nice attitude, mate.

Djmc 7 August 2011, 12.59

No a fucking hard working resident with a family !

Nick 7 August 2011, 13.07

Don’t quote Frederick Douglas as if this is the same situation. Ending hundreds of years of slavery is different than simple class warfar/police-criminal relations

ally 7 August 2011, 13.08

See, I’m happy to call the looters, the violent people torching innocent businesses and homes scum and trash.
They are. No one I know would do that. You have a choice, rob and loot and throw petrol bombs to get yourself a tv. Or not.

And if they see themselves as the pinnacles or even representatives of society instead then let them respond here.

Djmc 7 August 2011, 13.08

Grow up

Symon 7 August 2011, 13.09

No Djmc you’re the problem. Law and order and Justice should apply to all regardless of race or class or whether or not they ware a in uniform.

In this way law abiding citizens would support the police and law abiding police officers would support the public.

Your attitudes leads to the opposite. Discrimination, resentment and what we see today.

P Nut 7 August 2011, 13.20

In the absence of proper journalism articles like this one find a lot more attention then they should. Last nights riots haven’t done anyone any favours. Assuming that Mr. Duggan is innocent, thanks to last night his name will be forever attached to rioting and to the burning down and looting of innocents.

Businesses looted, homes destroyed, is this what he would have wanted? Cause if it is then the accusations of him being a gangster are completely true. You decide.

HC 7 August 2011, 13.20

And where is our sense of outrage when one of our youths shoot another of our youths ?

It is never there , because it is much easier to blames others than to look within ..

InjusticeUK 7 August 2011, 13.23

@ Nick – this RACE issue has been ongoing within Police and the UK for decades. This is exactly what resulted in the Brixton riots as Police again ignored the comminity’s plea for answers and justice. You are IGNORANT if you sadly fail to see this

ally 7 August 2011, 13.24

I have no intention of carrying a knife or gun or shooting anyone. I can look in me and know that the burning of shops and homes was mindless vandalism by a minority of mindless people who have no respect for their community.

I attend community and police events and speak to people to effect change.

ally 7 August 2011, 13.28

Interesting you pick on Brixton riots, Toxteth was there too. Maybe you need to narrow it to Police and your area, because the police appear to be working well rest of UK.This isn’t going to start a riot in Liverpool or Bristol or Manchester… this ain’t no ArabSpring.

It’s mindless vandalism unsupported by local community

Andrew 7 August 2011, 13.28

Clarence, you are not fit to be called a journalist.

DrDee 7 August 2011, 13.30

Well said @ InjusticeUK. The police have little respect for the community which is why they feel its acceptable to beat a 16yr old girl with a batton, and ignore over 200 peaceful protesters who want justice. Riots are the language of the unheard. Shame on the few who choose to ignore the route of this issue stems from the Police

emily 7 August 2011, 13.40

On Sky News a local campaigner says the gun that was found on Duggan was stashed in a sock – so it wasn’t prepared for use and couldn’t have been fired at the radio.

MarkP 7 August 2011, 13.40

Yes shame on all who believe this form of police brutality including the GBH of a 16yr old girl is acceptable anywhere whether in London or the UK or anywhere in the world. It is a delight to see apathy has not devoured our nation.

Great article

Hanna 7 August 2011, 13.43

Is that the same police who claimed they had firm evidence Jean Charles de Menezes, was a terrorist about to bomb the underground? hmmm..

Rich, 7 August 2011, 13.46

What a terrible article!

It’s rubbish like this that that motivates the idiots on the street! if they are so passionate about what there standing up for, then why cover their faces? I’ve seen Tottenham grow and prosper as a colourful community and now it’s had it’s heart ripped out! Find them, stop their benefits and jail them! Tottenham doesn’t need them.

Richard 7 August 2011, 13.57

Thoroughly enjoyed this article! The barbaric Police who continue to abuse instead of protect and shockingly believe they are above society are utterly responsible for envoking this tragedy. These vile uniformed vermin who believe a baton can be used on the innocent must be made accountable.

JonathanCallaghan 7 August 2011, 14.03

Great article. And wonderful to see a journalist brave enough t speak the truth of very sad reality. We the people deserve our free speech and constitutional rights. If the cops fail to listen, who will? Every action causes a reaction. Ofcourse they will have the media focus only on the riots, ofcourse they will claim to of found a gun in the mans sock. Despite no official statements they have willingly allowed the media to label the father of 4 a ‘black gangstar’. *Yawns* Nobody is condoning violence however how many times must we see the same regurgitated rubbish before we stand up for our justice. How long will we sleep

InjusticeUK 7 August 2011, 14.16

@ally say:
“Interesting you pick on Brixton riots, Toxteth was there too. Maybe you need to narrow it to Police and your area, because the police appear to be working well rest of UK.This isn’t going to start a riot in Liverpool or Bristol or Manchester… ”

@ally – Perhaps ally you fail to remember the nationally televised documentary The Secret Policeman pertaining to Police racism within the entire UK police force. Which resulted in officers from NORTH WALES and MANCHESTER POLICE suspended

In the documentary, undercover reporter Mark Daly filmed several Police outside of London admitting being racist, voting for the (BNP) British National Party and saying Hitler had the “right ideas”.

The ignorance of individuals to have the audacity in believing this is only a “London problem” is disturbingly sad

Bob 7 August 2011, 14.22

Terrible article. Have you considered a career with News International?

Antony 7 August 2011, 14.26

Some value property above people, they are called ‘the rich’. The police are there to protect them from the public. Shame on those who choose to side with their oppressors, google ‘stockholm syndrome’ and keep voting, keep respecting the police, keep yourselves in your nice convenient cell. That kool aid must be nice and sweet

Nick 7 August 2011, 14.28

Just because a policeman may be white and a criminal may be black doesn’t make it a race issue. Not many out cries when white criminals die, don’t say that doest happen. I just dont think a citywide riot is the right way to go about a positive change. Fighting fire with fire doesn’t usually work, unless your speaking about national revolutions, which this isn’t.

Claire 7 August 2011, 14.29

Marks been arrested before he is a known gang member a TMD ( tottenham man dem) elder. So get over that he wasn’t a gang member shit, really!! get you facts..

LondonGuy 7 August 2011, 14.31

Tottenham residents revert to type, smashing and burning their own streets, businesses, and homes. Like an animal that fouls it’s own cage. A single penny invested in Tottenham is a penny wasted.

“Property damage is not violence”?!?, only if you are some kind of nomadic. If you like running water, electricity, and a roof to keep out the weather, then of course property damage is violence. Maybe that’s how these people like to live?

ally 7 August 2011, 14.37

It’s not a London problem, it was a localised Tottenham area or whoever chose to enter and cause chaos Tottenham and Wood Green. And I think black and white people were involved so get over the racism tag.

It was an excuse for vandalism

Don’t tell me that it happens everywhere else.Because it doesen’t.
No one is ever perfect, but the police in this country do a fantastic job- unlike some of its citizens.

InjusticeUK 7 August 2011, 14.39

Djmc 7 August 2011, 14.40

Symon: this is not a gcse essay on justice, when a gang of thugs murder your neighbour, you’ll understand the difference between idealism and reality! !

Clive 7 August 2011, 14.42

Shocked at the people who are trolling the article and slating the writer. What happened to free speech? you toffee nosed liberals instantly get the ump when someone questions your ungodly system of goverment.
What would you do it if was your son killed?

Michael Coombs 7 August 2011, 14.43

“Tottenham: this is what you get – fire”…when police return fire against an armed criminal.
Perhaps the author of this article would prefer these mindless thugs to be running the country?
The cowardly anonymous author of this disturbing inflammatory article should be found, put up against the wall, and shot, along with the rioters.

ally 7 August 2011, 14.44

@injustice uk
I never said it was a “london problem” if you look at what i wrote i said “your area” so don’t change facts to support your own story

uniquefreak 7 August 2011, 14.47

Can’t believe there is actually going to be an Olympics in such a violent and dangerous city.

Anyone still in Tottenham would be wise to get out now before tonight’s riots which (according to twitter/facebook) will make yesterday’s look like an episode of “in the night garden”.

PieNMashFilms 7 August 2011, 15.16

A very ‘brave’ article approaching the truth – ‘The Truth Hurts’.

Over 1000 deaths in UK custody in the last 30 years and the families and loved ones of the victims still grieve and seek justice. Those of you who oppose this journalists opinion need to educate yourselves – See the free documentary ‘4ward Forever The Heroes’ and put yourselves and ‘your’ loved ones in the same position of those grieving families.

The mainstream media would never have provided the national coverage to expose this story if the true sense of injustices (displayed in the utter frustration ultimately leading to violence) had not been delivered by our disenfranchised desperate and neglected youth.

Those who are condemning this slant on opinion should put their passionate weight behind the true perpetrators of violence and suffering – the banking industry.
Well done Clarence.

Mancini 7 August 2011, 15.18

Mr Bungle, just wanted to say that as another white, middle-class male I completely agree with you. The fabric of this country has fallen to pieces and if the privileged middle can see that then something is afoot. Most of the positions of responsibility and supposed accountability in the country have been tainted by corruption and ‘the system’ is as bankrupt as the country itself.

As for Tottenham, there are some very serious questions that need to be answered regarding Mr Duggan’s death and the troubles last night are in part testament to that. If there is a more profound issue regarding the Met and it’s treatment of the public than those questions are all the more serious.

However, these questions must not be obscured behind criminals and criminal behaviour like theft and looting. If the position with the Met is as described then the moral high ground belongs to the protesters already and the truth will out, peacefully. This is however jeopardised by scenes of wanton destruction and shameful images of mass theft. The two issues MUST be kept separate as they are distinct. This article seems to want to connect the two which is counter-productive to say the least.

The biggest victims are the loved ones of Mark Duggan that live in or near Tottenham. They have lost a loved one and seen their home turned into a bombsite. Tottenham has never been pretty but it was getting better. Why should PC World or JD Sports consider opening new shops and replacing lost jobs in an area that is seemingly hostile to their operations ? Imagine Tottenham without the sliver of economic investment it currently has.

The Met need to tell the truth regarding Mr Duggan’s death asap. Why has this not been clarified already ? Partly because of last night’s destruction, i’m sure they would say.

There are ways of effective peaceful protest and the keys are numbers of protesters, a simple but irrefutable moral point and popular support. Numbers are growing as I started out by saying, popular support comes from well publicised moral outrages such as the shooting of innocent people, corruption and anti-democratic processes. Popular support is lost when a valid point is tarnished with newsworthy violence and criminality.

The people that were up and thieving throughout the night tarnished the plight of those seeking justice for Mark Duggan.

Nigel Blumenthal 7 August 2011, 15.19

If there was ever a street demo or riot in which there was no looting, then I might concede that the author has a point. But most of the people out there last night weren’t protesting about Duggan – they were looting. There was no upset about Duggan that could not be cured by a 52″ flatscreen TV.

anna 7 August 2011, 15.22

Your sympathy for these criminals is an insult. An insult to the people who lost their homes, their business, their jobs, those injured and those of us who were afraid and hiding in own homes afraid to go out into our neighborhood.

I sincerely hope you pull your head out of the theoretical bubble it seems to be stuck in and see the reality created by these thugs. My community is now facing huge rebuilding cost when it is already poor, the possibility of business leaving or avoiding our area and a fear of what is to come.

You can try to dress up your excuses as intelligent by quoting Martin Luther King but the number of examples of violent change leading to further violence throughout history is significant.

Ill shall take comfort in knowing your views do not hold any weight to those of use who are not ill informed and contain more than a modicum of common sense.

Scott 7 August 2011, 15.25

If anyone honestly belive that the tossers rioting were “protesting” you’re living in a dream world.

Symon 7 August 2011, 15.30

@Djmc so justice is idealism according to you.

Effective policing requires the public’s trust and cooperation. The public need to be able to trust the police not fear them.

It could well be you that may experience a dose of reality. If it can happen to this guy what makes you think you are immune.

Looks like a gang of thugs to me.

jamie 7 August 2011, 15.34

Who cares who shot first. If he was carrying a gun he deserved to get shot. And now the piece of shit will be immortalised forever.

This is a RACE issue. Black communities need to look within and ask themselves why their youth are so prone to senseless violence. Why is does the phrase ‘black-on-black crime’ even exist? Is that the police’s fault too? Why do black people make up 15% of the prison population but only 2% of the general population? The animals looting people’s FUCKING HOMES weren’t making a stand against the police. They were opportunistic criminals taking advantage of the situation to get free trainers.

I’m sick of hearing euphemisms such as ‘frustrated’and ‘disenfranchised’. The retards who did this are mindless thugs, and in supposedly ‘protesting’ against racism they have done nothing but reinforce negative stereotypes which, lets face it, exist for a reason.

Kate 7 August 2011, 15.54

jamie: “Why do black people make up 15% of the prison population but only 2% of the general population?”

Because of institutional racism across the police and the so-called ‘justice’ system. You fucking racist.

Jaspal 7 August 2011, 15.54

Have you ever been to Tottenham? Do you actually know anything about the issues and make up of the area? Do you know that the vast majority of people involved in the disorder were not involved in the protest around Mark Duggan’s death but were simply there as to use this an opportunity for violence, damaging innocents property and theft? Do you recognise the number of people who are the very residents you speak of who have been displaced by this disorder after having their homes burnt to the ground?

You are an ignorant and clearly ill informed individual to the highest degree.

And before you ask, yes I was there, I saw it first hand and I am one of the people affected by the actions taken by these thugs.

jamie 7 August 2011, 16.14

@Kate Why in that case are there not a massively disproportionate number of all ethnic minorities in prison. As a minority member myself i’m sick of middle-class white apologists like you crying ‘racism’ when you have absolutely no idea what the word means. I bet if you were walking back to your nice home at night and saw a group of black youths hanging around on the street, you’d cross the road. But you wouldn’t if they were chinese youths would you? We’re all racist because people are different. Deal with it.

ally 7 August 2011, 16.32

Anyone involve in theft, looting, causing damage to property #Tottenham give yourself in or forever remember how much a seriously bad person you are. Try explain your actions here, then to your kids.

Mancini 7 August 2011, 16.45


You’re a racist, if you dont know that you should.

You’ve made more references to races and what you seem to think are their inherent flaws and that makes you a racist.

I am one of the white middle class you refer to and for your information I apologise for no one. You have made your ill informed ‘thoughts’ on black people very clear despite not openly saying as much and you’re as ignorant as you are bigoted.

People are all different as you say, racists can be of any colour or ethnic minority as you have sadly demonstrated. I wouldn’t be stupid enough to say that all ethnic minorities are racists though whereas you might.

Your entire opinion on this matter seems to take root in your profoundly racist world view and is therefore invalid.

I have more in common with a decent person from an ethnic minority than a white idiot. Race is a poor excuse for a man and a very primitive way of seeing the world.

Solinkaa 7 August 2011, 16.46

Oh dear… And the communist states of eastern europe were havens of peace and prosperity, and the Soviet Union was a model of freedom and democracy. I would recommend reading a couple of books, and forming an independent opinion, and not just parrotting the line that you were indoctrinated with at uni, or whatever institution of propaganda. This analysis is as tendentious as Walter Duranty’s reports about the Ukrainian famine. To take away the personal responsibility from the people who participated in the rioting and looting is a typical patronising and racist attitude of the self styled “communist vanguard”, so no surprises there, really.

curly 7 August 2011, 16.51

“Property damage is not violence – it doesn’t physically hurt anybody”

What a stupid comment, and sums up the article.

The victims of these riots are the community, which these thugs don’t represent or give a damn about.

Djmc 7 August 2011, 17.04

Sy on you make my point, I don’t condone this violence, I don’t condone the violence last night, you do understand ideology spouted by opinionated twats is very different from real experience! I have known brutalityso don’t be so fucking arrogant to ask ‘what makes you think your imune’. You ignorant child, grow up and come down here and live in this area, the people your crying for would eat you for breakfast while you screamed for the police!!

Solinkaa 7 August 2011, 17.09

@jamie, “racism” is the only argument white middle class people have in England – they have all undergone indoctrination in their universities, have very little knowledge beyond the propaganda they don’t realise they are repeating – and you’re right, they don’t know what “racism” means. (Bringing up somebody’s race does not a racist make, but then you need to know how to use a dictionary and look up a definition.) They are perfectly content to spew ad hominem attacks which close the debate, and don’t see that they are really enablers, excusing unaccaptable behaviour of some groups, thus hurting the hard working and tax paying people who live among those groups in crime-ridden areas like Tottenham. As a member of a minority, I am fed up of this patronising and yes, racist, attitude of “they didn’t know what they were doing” and “they were addressing an injustice.” Oh, they did know perfectly well what they were doing: looting and criminal damage. The middle classes are so entrenched in their self-hatred, that they think it’s perfectly acceptable for a thug to shoot a police officer, but it is not acceptable for the police to defend themselves. Very sad state of affairs.

jamie 7 August 2011, 17.12


maybe i am a racist, but only by the hypocritical white middle-class definition. when you and your mates are sitting around grumbling about drunken aussies, cowardly french or humourless germans that’s not racist is it, cos, well they’re white. but if anyone dares to speak out about idiosyncrasies and traits of black, brown or yellow people you’ll stamp your foot in outrage. i bet you’ve no problem accepting the positive qualities of various races, but when it comes to pointing out the negative you revert to ‘all people are created equal’. i see this hypocrisy every single day and my views on the subject are informed from being the victim of sickening racism my whole life, from people of all colours.all i’m saying is that communities need to address their own issues and problems, instead of the endless scapegoating that predictably surrounds issues like these.

T 7 August 2011, 17.30

yes Jamie you are a racist

in Britain there has always been riots and trust me they weren’t always started by black people.

They were usually, as is the case here, started by poor people looking for justice. Justice that could not be found in elitist institutions. In our society social, political and economic “justice” is only available to the rich.

No justice, No peace…

you know the rest.

Symon 7 August 2011, 17.39

@Djmc It is them and us. The power elite and us. They exploit our differences in order to exploit us.

The support for the illegal wars in the middle east was fuelled in part by the idea that they are different.

Look at the cost. The catastrophic devastation over there and according to the last figures I’ve seen, $4 Trillion transferred directly from my pocket and your pocket to the banks and military industry.

The more we are divided the more vulnerable we are.

It is not about black, white, brown or yellow. It is about conciousness and character.

Good and bad are to be found among all groups. Let the good flock together.

jamie 7 August 2011, 17.48

@michael coombs Nope you’ve missed the point completely. I’m suggesting that the sometimes the truth can be racist. And white people aren’t comfortable with that.

@T I’m not saying all riots are started by black people. Nor even that rioting is never justified. But in last nights case, those pricks weren’t out for justice. They were frying their own burgers in McDonalds for fuck’s sake.

admin 7 August 2011, 17.51

Comments that consist of nothing but abuse will be deleted.

Tim 7 August 2011, 17.52

I have two words for the writer and others here: lumpen proletariat.

Yes police in that area are nasty, had personal experience of that…but this shooting of someone who had alleged gang links (hand signs and all?) but looting TVs in his name is no protest. Depressing how part of that community is knowingly or unknowingly defending those who are destroying it via drugs and gangs…yes the police lie. Yes what happened is far from conclusive yet…but to jump on this for political or financial gain is far worse, and just stokes the flames. The press, blogs, social media have as much caused this as anyone…

But to defend someone like this, especially invoking the likes of Tomlinson, DeMenenez or Peach, well is laughable. At best this guy was wrong place wrong time with questionable friends…but it does seem rather more than that. Doesn’t seem an innocent target (even friends quoted as saying ‘he was involved in things’!); but I’ll suppose we’ll know more in future weeks after this has all died down and the firebrand bloggers and press have moved on to something else…leaving the ruins of Tottenham as a memorial.

alex 7 August 2011, 18.18

Don’t see why the riot has been hyped up as some kind of political protest.
It’s clear now that he must have had a gun when he was killed, I’d imagine it’s rather hard for a police officer to fabricate a gunshot wound. No innocent person in this country carries a gun for protection from the police. Unless you’re a farmer or a gangster, you don’t own a gun, period.
A bunch of his cronies got upset, and decided to trash Tottenham, in the process torching people’s houses and looting a fucking Carpetright.
Maybe it’s that political violence or protest is so generally rare in this country that as soon as we see a burning cop car we take it mean some kind of political statement.
I was on the student protests last year and got kettled on Whitehall; there was violence, but I can’t imagine the appetite for burning down people’s homes was as evident as it clearly was last night.
This was gang violence against the police.

Nick 7 August 2011, 18.21

Haha so the fact that there is a higher percentage of blacks in jail than make up the total population is because of strictly racism? Your kidding me right?

average joe 7 August 2011, 18.33

I walked past Tottenham police station at about 7:25 pm yesterday and indeed saw a PEACEFUL demo in the road. I also saw groups of youths/hoodies/wastes of space with nothing better to do (delete as applicable) stood around the street corners and at the bus stops nearby. Most (nearly all?) of them had their hoods up and their faces covered. Why?
There is nothing anyone could say to me to convince me they were there for any reason other than the mindless (a very apt word considering the people I am writing about!) VIOLENCE (which indeed it was!) that happened last night.
I seriously doubt any of it had anything to do with justice for Mark Duggan, but hey, these thugs haven’t had a decent reason to riot in ages so I guess any reason will do…….

Symon 7 August 2011, 18.37

The incident that turned a peaceful protest into a riot

Symon 7 August 2011, 18.46

Bullet found lodged in police radio was police issue bullet

gemma 7 August 2011, 18.47

From the Guardian –

“7.35pm: Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer’s radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet, the Guardian understands.

The Guardian’s crime correspondent, Sandra Laville, reports:

The revelation will fuel the fury in tottenham about the killing of Mark Duggan by armed officers. It also undermines suggestions that there was an exchange of fire between Duggan and the police before he died.”

So for everyone above saying he shot at police – THIS PROVES HE DIDN’T. The police killed him in cold blood. And you wonder why people are angry?

ANON 7 August 2011, 19.14

Fucking people moaning about the police – it’s their job to do what they do. So what if some bait guy gets shot down for acting suspicious? The police should be able to act much more severely than they do, why should they have to apologise?

@ the twat who wrote this:

“‘I had my head bashed in that day by police who charged us when I had my back to them. I spent the evening in hospital, bleeding from the head and vomiting”

That’s what you get for rioting and attacking police, mate. What were you expecting would happen, they’ll let you smash up property and throw incendiaries at people without stepping in?

I say fair play to the police, they need to act much harsher than they do already.

average joe 7 August 2011, 19.20

Symon, I watched the vid. I can’t clearly see what was going on, but if it was indeed an innocent girl who the police set upon for no reason then those who were there with the sole intent to cause trouble got their wish.

The gavvers attacked an innocent girl. LETS RIOT!

As for the bullet – if that is true, and it was a set up, then there are ways and means of dealing with it. Lawful ways and means!

“Some people just want to watch the world burn” – Alfred the Butler, The Dark Knight.

Willard 7 August 2011, 19.26

Fuck it. The guy is right. Thats what chickenshit racist pig motherfuckers are going to get if they keep kicking the shit out of innocent people. I don’t know about the guy that got shot, and I don’t believe all you people who claim to know the facts because you’ve read it in some bullshit, pig state corporate newspaper. But I know that black people round my way get beaten, harrassed and abused by the cops every fucking day. Not to mention the fact that they baton you in the fucking face if you try and have a peaceful march. Those fuckers have got it coming. We need to think about how we organise our communities against them. Because they are against us normal people.

ANON 7 August 2011, 19.30


Yes because looting peoples houses, burning shops, and attacking police is peaceful marching. derp.

jamie 7 August 2011, 19.39


yeah ‘organise communities’ to burn down ALL the neighbourhoods where black people live and get harrassed. That’ll ‘show’ the pigs. You cretin.

Neo 7 August 2011, 19.47

In an age where nearly everyone has a phone with a video camera, if the evidence displayed or surmised is true, does nobody have any part of these events captured to prove one way or the other the genuine facts of these incidences ? I’m not defending either side without facts, the police should also have any armed unit with video surveillance to prove their actions or inactions.

Symon 7 August 2011, 19.47

@average joe The police have been gagging for conflict for ages. If you remember the G20 protests in the city, it was the police that we ramping up the prospect of violence not the groups organising to protest.

They even had agent provocateurs posing as protesters.

In collusion with government, the financial terrorists continue to rape us and they are well aware that there is a limit.

Hence the slide towards more police surveillance and police state.

The attack in Norway, conveniently allows them to now cast everyone as potential suspects.

They have a plan. Watch for new security legislation to be announced soon I predict,

ANON 7 August 2011, 20.42


“Hence the slide towards more police surveillance and police state.

The attack in Norway, conveniently allows them to now cast everyone as potential suspects.

They have a plan. Watch for new security legislation to be announced soon I predict,”

Implying any of this is bad in the slightest? If you’re not a criminal, you should have nothing to fear.

Symon 7 August 2011, 21.23

@ANON Dr. David Kelly was not a criminal, neither was Jean Charles de Menezes.

I don’t believe you are as naive as you pretend to be.

Symon 7 August 2011, 21.34

Let’s stop assuming the police are on our side (The guardian)

Chris 7 August 2011, 21.48

I’ll wait for the facts to surface and avoid any speculative narrative.

El Marko 7 August 2011, 22.26

What people are missing here is that, yeah where there is an outburst of rage from a community that has been terrorised, there will be looting, there will be damage to property. They are unfortunate by-products of a situation that has been caused not by this community but by the racist state apparatus. The state is organised crime.

Michael 7 August 2011, 23.22

The rioting mob would laugh at your political pretensions.

Do be quiet.

average joe 7 August 2011, 23.33

Symon, saying the police have been gagging for conflict for ages is a very glib statement at best.

Hell, go the whole hog and say everyone in Tottenham last night was spoiling for a fight! (NB – I was and I wasn’t!)

We may never know all the facts surrounding this case, but I still maintain that once the (peaceful) demo had been arranged the rioting was inevitable, because there are, to put it bluntly, scumbag twats out there that want to burn, destroy, hurt and, it would appear, nick TV’s and trainers.

Anyway, this has taken up far too much of my time and effort, so I’m done.

Have a good one people!

Esha 8 August 2011, 01.03

Dom 8 August 2011, 09.35

The fact that so many people who have posted responses here claim to know the whole story is alarming to me.It’s obvious that if you are not the Police involved,Mark Duggan or Mark Duggan’s family then you’re never really going to know the whole story.People’s take on the subject becomes prejudiced by their general view of the world.Alot of the responses I see on here rely on media information which is generally favours the police version(e.g Smiley Culture fell on a knife rather than be taken into police custody)as the police version is supposedly the most trusted and available resource.

If we don’t cast any doubt on what we are told by our authorities then how can we even use our reason to establish whether or not they are an authority on any given matter. In other words if we don’t suspect and question them like they would do to us, then how can we ever have access to reliable information that would allow us to have an informed opinion.

The only thing that’s apparent to me is that the label of violent, mindless thugs can be applied as much to the rioters as to the authorities. It’s always been that way and unless people can abandon their binary way of looking at things then we don’t stand a chance. We’ll never solve our problems of violence unless we can abandon the notion that it cannot be ‘bad’ if used by the ‘Good’.

Laurence 8 August 2011, 11.55

What a load of rubbish. Shame on those people, setting buildings on fire with people inside is classed as attempted murder where I come. If they wanted to help, use their voices to speak up, not go home and watch what they have set fire too, on the TV’s THEY STOLE!!!

Jayc 8 August 2011, 12.07

What an imflamatory piece of poor, ill-informed piece of writing, and some of the comments on here are completely laughable. The law of the UK is the law for ALL, including the police, which is why the IPC are now involved. What were they meant to do? investigate poor Mr Duggans shooting in one day and report back to the family??!
If these riots have really been caused by one persons death at the hands of the police..then why are there no riots outside countless care home and hospitals? Why are we not rioting at the deplorable state of our NHS and Gp’s services who routinely descriminate against elderley and disabbled people with longterm complex needs? Why are we not rioting outside KFC and McDonalds whi surely have blood on their hands for slowly killing children with fatty crap?
This pseudo right-on, vulpine piece is just as violent as the youngsters ruining and wrecking legitimate family shops and businesses that are owned by people with their hearts and minds set on making these communities better places to live and bring up families.
If a family is burnt to death whilst looters attack and burn a shop, are you seriously sticking to your claim of..”The people on the streets of Tottenham are not ‘violent’ criminals with some burning hatred of Aldi. They are part of a community that has been pushed to the edge by the very real violence of the police.”
…what utter utter nonsensical drivel.
I will not be coming back to this site… I doubt if you will miss me, I have a brain and I am not a bitter, twisted moron…unlike RedPepper writers and readers.

James 8 August 2011, 14.06

While the above article is thoughtless drivel from start to finish and barely worth commenting on, there is an important issue here that needs to be addressed: our police must be better prepared for this sort of thing – perhaps helicopters with snipers should be deployed quickly to neutralise troublemakers immediately.

A petrol bomb for example is a lethal weapon – and we should have no qualms about shooting dead someone about to use one.

Yes, it’s a shame that it has to come to this – but if these people can’t respect the law, I’m afraid it’s the government’s duty to make them fear it. These rioters won’t look so brave or clever on the news lying dead in the street with their half of their heads missing. It will save the taxpayers a few quid in benefits as well – big smiles all round.

Michael Panis 8 August 2011, 14.14

What a crock of liberal shite: awful article.

symple 8 August 2011, 14.20

The one person we’ve heard nothing of or from is the mini can driver.

Just saying.

symple 8 August 2011, 14.24

I meant mini “cab driver” of course

Didn’t mean to imply he’s been canned or anything!

symple 8 August 2011, 14.38

Looking for information on the Duggan case I came across this

Man died after two hours in custody

I had missed this storey from late June

symple 8 August 2011, 14.45

Early eye witness account of Mark Duggan’s shooting completely contradicts main stream narrative.

anchoredwunderlust 8 August 2011, 15.55

When I was a child I used to believe that anyone who took part in that kind of damage to property or attacked the police, or broke the law was a violent chav-yob.

Then I grew up and actually went to these things, read some books, got involved in discussions, and took a look at the bigger picture and realised that the Right wing press are disgusting, and that the liberal voices who think that NOT doing this stuff gets people anywhere are deluded. Even if they were heard, as if there is any kind of state reform which would be enough to end this crap.

Perhaps the rioters were not representative of the community, but you know who else aren’t? politicians and the police, and no that isn’t some modern problem. Other people can not ever represent you. Only by taking things into our individual and collective hands can we create something better, and this crap about ‘thats not very nice’ just gets in the way

James 8 August 2011, 16.21

I’m presently watching disturbing scenes on BBC News 24 in Hackney; black youths destroying a bus – yep, public transport is the enemy of poor, disenfranchised youth in London apparently.

Swift and brutal force is necessary to crush this. People must be defended against violence and anarchy, and if a few rioters end up with their heads caved in, it’s no great loss – and they only have themselves to blame.

Ah, currently the rioters are running away from the police like frightened little girls. Good.

symple 8 August 2011, 23.31

I have reposted what I submitted above, removing the typos and grammatical errors, as best I could, because I consider this message important.

If some errors remain I apologise.

If you take a minute to digest this “income and wealth gap chart” you will see how it demonstrates that history repeats when we repeat the same mistakes that we have made in the past. Go to the page and click on the chart for a larger image.

When you have extremes such as this, consider where that leaves those at the very bottom of the pyramid.

Now, on top of that, add a dose of racism, evidenced here.

Pay particular attention to the paragraph that explains what happens when the children are marked blind as opposed to being assessed by their teachers.

Bare in mind that the teachers in this article are merely a snapshot of society.

So is our society racist? Yes. Is it our fault? No. It has been programmed into us, through deliberate mis-education, pseudo scientific propaganda and reinforced through popular media.

Here is just a snippet of what has been hidden from us.

The consequence of all of the above is what we see today.

Read here

The solution? Start from scratch. Re-educate yourself but with the truth this time.

As I have said before, the divisions among us do not serve us but rather serve those who manipulate us.

If you still do not understand what is going on around you…

If you are bewildered or overwhelmed by the pace of events and change.

The answer is that we are approaching a new epoch. The truth is seeking us and increasingly, more of us are seeking the truth. And the truth will set us free.

The universe is moving on and you must move with it or perish. Those are the rules. Those have always been the rules.

The usurious monetary system is about to blow, as are the wicked quack pot schemers who considered themselves above the laws of the universe, God, Allah whatever you choose to call it.

A word of warning though. Whether we will get to the new horizon without avoiding another world war is solely in our hands. We must, oppose any suggestion of conflict with Iran.

War with Iran could well entail Iran, Russia, China and their allies on one side and America, NATO and their allies on the other and us of course in the middle.

Taking into account modern weaponry, if we are foolish enough to allow this to happen, who can blame the universe for chewing us up, spitting us out and moving on without us.

A a few thousand years from now, some species or another could be digging up our primitive fossils. But I doubt that will happen.

We are waking up and we will do what is necessary, right and just.

George 9 August 2011, 04.14

My answer to you is here:!/notes/george-chilton/im-young-im-poor-and-i-want/10150333665983688

Mira 9 August 2011, 13.42

This article disgusts me. Clearly, you seem to have lost the plot. Yes, the rioters were on the streets in Tottenham to protests the killing of a young man but what it has become is beyond that. It is useless, good for nothing, young people who have no sense of morality and culture using this as a means of getting free things and having a bit of in their words “fun.” Please do not support such activity by producing such a piece of crap that is your article.

Get your facts straight 9 August 2011, 15.01

“The known facts are that the father-of-four was shot twice in the face on Thursday by a police officer wielding a Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun. (Few have rushed to condemn that violence.)”

I’m a little confused with your definition of known facts? If by known facts you mean wild and completely inaccurate speculation then you’re spot on. However there is no truth in your claims that he was shot in the head or in fact laying face down on the floor when he was shot.

And as for your comment “Property damage is not violence – it doesn’t physically hurt anybody.”, lets see how much you like it when someone smashes up your house/business/car for no reason and you’re left to pick up the pieces!

Jerri R. 9 August 2011, 21.28

So trashing a store and stealing what’s inside will bring Mark Duggan back to life? Tipping over cars and setting fires is going to bring comfort to his family? His four children are going to understand that this is all for their dad somehow? All of this terrifying rioting going on is going to help them go on with their lives–how?

These rioters don’t want any good to come of this man’s senseless death. If they did, they’d be helping out his family instead of helping themselves to flat screen TVs and jewelry. This is self indulgence and opportunism plain and simple, not some honorable movement against injustice.

Anonymous reply 9 August 2011, 21.51

I guess you must be talking about these folks

“Sept. 15 Tribunal to hear evidence on Elizabeth Windsor and Pope Ratzinger culpability in crimes against humanity, and child trafficking”

kept that quiet didn’t they

Merrick 9 August 2011, 22.33

@Hannah, “Excellent impartial reporting here…ahem. Note the lack of reporting that Duggan was himself armed and fired at the police officers first as we indeed know to be true.”

Erm, “There is no evidence Mark Duggan opened fire at police before being shot dead by a firearms officer, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has said.”

But he must have been armed and shot, because the police said so.

And Ian Tomlinson had a heart attack and police tried to help but were pelted with bottles.

And Jean Charles de Menezes was wearing a bulky jacket on a hot day, vaulted the barrier and ran away from police shouting at him to stop.

They kill, then they smear their victims to cover it up. How many proven cases does it take before you stop being spoonfed the police’s bullshit?

Caleb 10 August 2011, 04.20

If I break your window (a property damage), would you consider it a violence act?

Symon 10 August 2011, 13.36

Reading some of the commentary in the news today, Shoot them,they are trash,they are vermin etc. makes me laugh how much they sound like Gaddafi when the so called rebels did far far worse that what the rioters and looters are doing on our streets today.

Yet we are currently bombing the hell out of Libya in support of the rebels who include al-qaeda elements.

Did people really think that the absolute plunder of the global economy by the criminal financial class, the too big to fails who our governments answer too, would not lead to unrest here has it has in Spain, Greece, France Ireland, Eastern Europe, and now even Israel.

The way we vent our frustrations has is its own unique character which, is reflective of the selfish, materialistic, consumerist, botox on credit, culture that we have fostered over the last several decades.

America’s frustrations will be vented in much the same way since the US and UK have been subjected to exactly the same social engineering agendas.

are vented have th

Tadd 10 August 2011, 21.28

People obviously have no idea how insurance works.

You have a premium you pay, we all get that.
Something happens to your property – say a riot. Got it.
You cash in on your insurance, get things repaired – we’re all together here.

Your premium goes up.
The premiums for your area go up, not just for Joe but for Steve, Betty, Lori, Paul, etc etc etc.

Insurance is great when you have it, but after things like this – companies go out of business, insurance companies run out of funds to pay for damages, people lose jobs, costs of products sky rocket, people lose houses, get sick from malnutrition .

So, in the end .. does burning down a business physically hurt anyone?

Yes, it does.

It’s a big world picture kids.

Not to mention, what does the community have anything to do with the IPCC or the shooting? Is it “PC World’s” fault that happened? Will burning down PC World change anything? The answer is no. It will most definitely not. What the looting and rioting does is create a militaristic police state.

Great job. You just gave police MORE power, which is what you are supposedly fighting against.

Rather than acting out, use some logic and brain power. Not fire bombs and destruction.

hari 11 August 2011, 14.49

Lierre Keith:

“I would urge the following distinctions, the violence of hierarchy vs. the violence of self-defense, violence against actual people vs. violence against property, and the violence as self-actualization vs. the violence of political resistance.”

Comments are now closed on this article.

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